Interview with Young Lawyers Division (YLD) Women in the Profession Committee of the American Bar Association
- How did you get where you are?
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Hard work and tenacity. Or as some would say, my sheer stubbornness. I have been in private practice for 17 years. I was able to purchase an office building in 2006, and I added the title “landlord” to my resume, a goal many women don’t achieve. I started law school in 1981. My class was 70% male. It never crossed my mind when I applied to the University of Florida that I was entering a male-dominated profession. My parents believed women should be provided the same opportunities as men. I was lucky to work for a boss at my first job who also believed that. I stayed at that job and grew and learned for 17 years.
- Did you plan to get where you are? If not, what was your plan and why/how did it change?
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Of course not. Do any of us? But I am exactly where I should be in my career. I started as an assistant public defender. Like many new lawyers, the plan was get two years of litigation experience, get a job with a big firm and someday be a partner with a corner office. Instead, I loved being a criminal defense attorney. I loved the courtroom. I loved the challenge. And then I second chaired my first death penalty case. I was hooked. Constitutional issues, forensics, mental health issues, fighting the good fight to save clients’ lives. There was an opening in the capital division a few years later, and I was determined it would be mine. I was competing against male lawyers with more trial experience. One of the supervisors in the office said a woman would be too emotional to handle the position. I am proud to say I proved him wrong. My boss gave me the position, and I eventually became head of the division. I planned on staying there until I retired. Then my boss retired...and there was an election. My candidate lost. There would not be a place for me with the new administration. I had other job offers but decided it was time to start my own firm. I had also become an adjunct professor and published a book, accomplishments I had not planned on.
- What pitfalls have you faced as a female attorney?
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I became a member of the Death Penalty Steering Committee. One lawyer represents each of the 20 judicial circuits in Florida. I arrive at my first meeting. Nineteen men and me. Not all of them were receptive to having a female on the committee. I served on the committee for over 10 years. Several of those lawyers are friends of mine to this day.
Some clients did not want to be represented by a “skirt lawyer.” I learned it was important to discuss those issues when they arose. Opinions won’t change without dialogue.
I used to show up for depositions and get asked if I was the court reporter. This happens less often now. The fact it is no longer assumed that the female is the court reporter is positive change. When those type of incidents occur, it’s important to handle those situations with grace. Ask that person why that assumption was made. Realize you have a teaching moment. Use it. - What advice would you give young women attorneys?
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Find some good mentors. They can be male or female. Ask questions, about practicing law and about life. If you are unhappy in your career or feeling unfulfilled, don’t be afraid to change jobs. There are so many opportunities for those with a law degree. Be brave enough to make a change. Find a work/life balance that works for you. Get involved in volunteer work you enjoy. I serve on the advisory board of the Legal Studies Department at the University of Central Florida where I am an adjunct. I coach a college trial team that competes in tournaments all over the United States. I learn from them, and they learn from me. I teach trial seminars for attorneys. Never stop evolving.
- How has the legal profession changed since you started your career?
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In a word: technology. There was no internet when I entered practice. I learned research in a library. You spoke with opposing counsel on the phone or met in person. Most communication is done by email now. There are more lawyers and more female lawyers. We are more accessible, but it is more difficult to unplug and take a break from work.
- What do you believe to be the current perception of women attorneys?
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I think we are more respected and accepted than when I began practice. It is encouraging to see “firsts” for women, but it is also a reminder there is still progress to be made. We are now allowed to wear pants to court. But we can’t wear open-toed shoes to the jail. I worked in an office that was one of the first to allow job-sharing for women. It began when two women returned from maternity leave and wanted to continue with their careers but have quality time with their children. When one of them transitioned back to full-time, a male attorney took advantage of the opportunity to job-share. What a great example of thinking outside the box regardless of gender. I initially offered virtual space to women lawyers with children who wanted to practice part-time. Today, I also have a male virtual tenant.
- Any tips for young female attorneys when asking for a raise?
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My advice is the same regardless of gender. Never ask for a raise because you “need” one. Ask for a raise because you’ve earned one. Prepare bullet points about your accomplishments and your value. Don’t be afraid to tell your supervisor your value. Have specific examples of what you bring to the job.
- We still have a long way to go, so where do we go from here?
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The first step is always dialogue and education. We must talk about what changes are needed and why. We need to enlighten ourselves and others about what progress still needs to happen. We need to put together a plan to accomplish our goals. We need to stop labeling lawyers as “male” and “female.” We all passed the same bar exam and should have access to the same opportunities.
My favorite quote from Justice Ginsburg speaks volumes: “When I’m sometimes asked when will there be enough [women on the Supreme Court]? And I say, ‘When there are nine.’ People are shocked. But there’d been nine men, and nobody’s ever raised a question about that.”
Patricia Cashman owns her own law firm in Orlando, Florida. She focuses her practice on criminal defense and Title IX violations. She can be reached at pac_law@yahoo.com.